Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

J.Witvliet
(From BB)
I wonder, how far are they compatible?
With most pinpad readers, you can enter your PIN either from the Ppad, or from your normal keyboard.

It seems (!) That with the ct710 you are forced to use the pinpad (protection against sloppy users/keyloggers)

Hw


----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Martin Paljak [mailto:[hidden email]]
Verzonden: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 05:04 PM W. Europe Standard Time
Aan: OpenSC-devel <[hidden email]>; MUSCLE <[hidden email]>
Onderwerp: Re: [Opensc-devel] Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Martin Paljak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I just discovered that there is a new and cheap (20€) pinpad reader
> publicly available in Estonia, with the advertised name of "Gemalto
> CT710".


Here are some pictures of the specimen I just bought:  http://imgur.com/a/4aHp6

The reader is logically identical to this one:
http://pcsclite.alioth.debian.org/ccid/shouldwork.html#0x08E60x34C2

Best,
Martin

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Martin Paljak-4
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 2:22 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (From BB)
> I wonder, how far are they compatible?
> With most pinpad readers, you can enter your PIN either from the Ppad, or from your normal keyboard.
>
> It seems (!) That with the ct710 you are forced to use the pinpad (protection against sloppy users/keyloggers)

It doesn't seem so but actually is so. The only way to send PIN
commands is through the pinpad. This effectively blocks most malware
from accessing keys which require user consent through PIN entry. It
is still possible to trick an unaware user into revealing a PIN by
prompting for it, but it will still be virtually impossible to
activate such key with the stolen PIN.



--
Martin
+372 515 6495

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

J.Witvliet
In reply to this post by J.Witvliet
Very well for the ct710, but you wrote that it was like the "gemalto ezio shield".

Could it be that it is only enforced by the (estonian) ct710, but not by others, like the ezio-shield?

Hw


----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Martin Paljak [mailto:[hidden email]]
Verzonden: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 02:08 PM W. Europe Standard Time
Aan: Witvliet, J, CDC/IV/DCOPS/I&S/HIN
Cc: MUSCLE <[hidden email]>; OpenSC-devel <[hidden email]>
Onderwerp: Re: [Opensc-devel] Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 2:22 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (From BB)
> I wonder, how far are they compatible?
> With most pinpad readers, you can enter your PIN either from the Ppad, or from your normal keyboard.
>
> It seems (!) That with the ct710 you are forced to use the pinpad (protection against sloppy users/keyloggers)

It doesn't seem so but actually is so. The only way to send PIN
commands is through the pinpad. This effectively blocks most malware
from accessing keys which require user consent through PIN entry. It
is still possible to trick an unaware user into revealing a PIN by
prompting for it, but it will still be virtually impossible to
activate such key with the stolen PIN.



--
Martin
+372 515 6495

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This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages.

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Ludovic Rousseau
2013/10/16  <[hidden email]>:
> Very well for the ct710, but you wrote that it was like the "gemalto ezio shield".
>
> Could it be that it is only enforced by the (estonian) ct710, but not by others, like the ezio-shield?

To check the features of a (recent) Gemalto reader you can use my
FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py [1] Python script from
the pcsc-lite repository.

Martin, can you run the script with CT710 connected and publish the results?

Bye

[1] http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/pcsclite/trunk/PCSC/UnitaryTests/FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py?view=markup

--
 Dr. Ludovic Rousseau

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Douglas E. Engert
In reply to this post by J.Witvliet


On 10/16/2013 6:22 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> (From BB)
> I wonder, how far are they compatible?
> With most pinpad readers, you can enter your PIN either from the Ppad, or from your normal keyboard.
>
> It seems (!) That with the ct710 you are forced to use the pinpad (protection against sloppy users/keyloggers)

Yes, and code that attempts to cache your pin. Or a hacker that watched you type your PIN,
and is now trying to use your card with hacked code and your PIN.


>
> Hw
>
>
> ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> Van: Martin Paljak [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Verzonden: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 05:04 PM W. Europe Standard Time
> Aan: OpenSC-devel <[hidden email]>; MUSCLE <[hidden email]>
> Onderwerp: Re: [Opensc-devel] Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Martin Paljak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I just discovered that there is a new and cheap (20€) pinpad reader
>> publicly available in Estonia, with the advertised name of "Gemalto
>> CT710".
>
>
> Here are some pictures of the specimen I just bought:  http://imgur.com/a/4aHp6
>
> The reader is logically identical to this one:
> http://pcsclite.alioth.debian.org/ccid/shouldwork.html#0x08E60x34C2
>
> Best,
> Martin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> October Webinars: Code for Performance
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. De Staat aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het electronisch verzenden van berichten.
>
> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--

  Douglas E. Engert  <[hidden email]>
  Argonne National Laboratory
  9700 South Cass Avenue
  Argonne, Illinois  60439
  (630) 252-5444

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Frank Morgner
Readers that I have seen do filtering only for certain cards, that are
known to the reader. But maybe card identification/recognition is not
included for such a price...

On Wednesday, October 16 at 02:34PM, Douglas E. Engert wrote:

>
>
> On 10/16/2013 6:22 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > (From BB)
> > I wonder, how far are they compatible?
> > With most pinpad readers, you can enter your PIN either from the Ppad, or from your normal keyboard.
> >
> > It seems (!) That with the ct710 you are forced to use the pinpad (protection against sloppy users/keyloggers)
>
> Yes, and code that attempts to cache your pin. Or a hacker that watched you type your PIN,
> and is now trying to use your card with hacked code and your PIN.
>
>
> >
> > Hw
> >
> >
> > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > Van: Martin Paljak [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Verzonden: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 05:04 PM W. Europe Standard Time
> > Aan: OpenSC-devel <[hidden email]>; MUSCLE <[hidden email]>
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Opensc-devel] Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Martin Paljak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I just discovered that there is a new and cheap (20€) pinpad reader
> >> publicly available in Estonia, with the advertised name of "Gemalto
> >> CT710".
> >
> >
> > Here are some pictures of the specimen I just bought:  http://imgur.com/a/4aHp6
> >
> > The reader is logically identical to this one:
> > http://pcsclite.alioth.debian.org/ccid/shouldwork.html#0x08E60x34C2
> >
> > Best,
> > Martin
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135031&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensc-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensc-devel
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. De Staat aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het electronisch verzenden van berichten.
> >
> > This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
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> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensc-devel
> >
>
> --
>
>   Douglas E. Engert  <[hidden email]>
>   Argonne National Laboratory
>   9700 South Cass Avenue
>   Argonne, Illinois  60439
>   (630) 252-5444
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> October Webinars: Code for Performance
> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
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--
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Virtual Smart Card Architecture http://vsmartcard.sourceforge.net
OpenPACE                        http://openpace.sourceforge.net
IFD Handler for libnfc Devices  http://sourceforge.net/projects/ifdnfc

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Martin Paljak-4
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Frank Morgner
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Readers that I have seen do filtering only for certain cards, that are
> known to the reader. But maybe card identification/recognition is not
> included for such a price...


Indeed, they hardly ever come as "cheap" and are products that are
*very* closely tied to a specific card/solution.

I would not want to have a reader that only works with a pre-defined
set of cards (and software...), I'd be more happy if a few cards
happen not to work for some reason. Adapting the host-side software is
something that needs to be done, yet...

Martin


--
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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Martin Paljak-4
In reply to this post by Ludovic Rousseau
Hello,


On my current Debian (pcsc-lite 1.8.4, ccid 1.4.7) I get
"FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND not supported".
--
Martin
+372 515 6495


On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Ludovic Rousseau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2013/10/16  <[hidden email]>:
>> Very well for the ct710, but you wrote that it was like the "gemalto ezio shield".
>>
>> Could it be that it is only enforced by the (estonian) ct710, but not by others, like the ezio-shield?
>
> To check the features of a (recent) Gemalto reader you can use my
> FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py [1] Python script from
> the pcsc-lite repository.
>
> Martin, can you run the script with CT710 connected and publish the results?
>
> Bye
>
> [1] http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/pcsclite/trunk/PCSC/UnitaryTests/FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py?view=markup
>
> --
>  Dr. Ludovic Rousseau

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Ludovic Rousseau
2013/10/17 Martin Paljak <[hidden email]>:
> Hello,
>
>
> On my current Debian (pcsc-lite 1.8.4, ccid 1.4.7) I get
> "FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND not supported".

Exact.
You need to enable DRIVER_OPTION_CCID_EXCHANGE_AUTHORIZED in the
libccid Info.plist file
    <key>ifdDriverOptions</key>
    <string>0x0001</string>

--
 Dr. Ludovic Rousseau

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Martin Paljak-4
In reply to this post by Ludovic Rousseau
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Ludovic Rousseau
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> To check the features of a (recent) Gemalto reader you can use my
> FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py [1] Python script from
> the pcsc-lite repository.
>
> Martin, can you run the script with CT710 connected and publish the results?

The output of the script is attached.

It is strange that they have reduced the maximum PIN length number :(



--
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+372 515 6495

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Re: Cheap pinpad smart card reader with "PIN firewall"

Ludovic Rousseau
2013/10/19 Martin Paljak <[hidden email]>:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Ludovic Rousseau
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> To check the features of a (recent) Gemalto reader you can use my
>> FEATURE_CCID_ESC_COMMAND_Gemalto_features.py [1] Python script from
>> the pcsc-lite repository.
>>
>> Martin, can you run the script with CT710 connected and publish the results?
>
> The output of the script is attached.

Thanks. Added to my collection.

> It is strange that they have reduced the maximum PIN length number :(

And they have fixed the FirewalledCommand_SW1/SW2, and added a USB
Cserial number.

Compared to the CT710 I have access to:

--- Gemalto_Ezio_Shield_PinPad_features.txt    2013-10-19
18:37:10.000000000 +0200
+++ /Users/rousseau/Downloads/Martin.txt    2013-10-19 19:48:56.000000000 +0200
@@ -1,7 +1,11 @@
-Reader:    Gemalto Ezio Shield 00 00
+Reader:    Gemalto Ezio Shield (S1370135513869) 00 00
 IdVendor:  0x08E6
 IdProduct: 0x34C2
-[2, 17, 0, 2, 127, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 0, 1, 4, 16, 1, 255, 255, 0, 0, 0]
+[2, 17, 0, 2, 127, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 0, 1, 4, 12, 1, 100, 4, 0, 0, 0]
 LogicalLCDLineNumber (Logical number of LCD lines): 2
 LogicalLCDRowNumber (Logical number of characters per LCD line): 17
 LcdInfo: 0
@@ -33,7 +37,7 @@
  bPPDUSupportOverEscape: False
 VersionNumber: 1
 MinimumPINSize: 4
-MaximumPINSize: 16
+MaximumPINSize: 12
 Firewall: True
-FirewalledCommand_SW1: 0xFF
-FirewalledCommand_SW2: 0xFF
+FirewalledCommand_SW1: 0x64
+FirewalledCommand_SW2: 0x04



--
 Dr. Ludovic Rousseau

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